Begina Cox with an interview with Rowena Chiu. Within tsunami of women’s voices is Rowena’s. Rowena Chiu was silenced for 20 years by a non-disclosure agreement (NDA) she signed after an alleged sexual assault by Harvey Weinstein, the co-founder of Miramax Films, and her former boss. In this interview, prior to the UK release of the film "She Said.", I sat down with Rowena, who shared her personal experiences working for Weinstein and the impact it had on her life. She also shared me with her thoughts on the MeToo Movement and the important next steps for this crucial conversation about sexual harassment and abuse in the workplace and beyond. Join us as we delve into Rowena's story and her perspective on the ongoing efforts to bring about lasting change.
Photo by Kathy LaBarre, © Rowena Chiu, used with permission
Begina: Can you describe your life before the incident with Harvey Weinstein, and how have you changed since then? You are widely known as one of Harvey Weinstein's victims, having shared your story in an opinion piece in The New York Times and in various interviews. You recently attended the premiere of the movie "She Said" in London, which explores Harvey's behaviour. How would you describe yourself before the events took place and who you are now?
Rowena: Yes, definitely. Thank you for asking this question, as you are correct. Many interviews with Weinstein survivors tend to focus solely on their connection with Harvey Weinstein, neglecting the fact that they are real individuals with jobs, families, and lives outside of the film industry. Due to society's fascination with the film industry, these survivors are often reduced to just their connection with the film and Harvey Weinstein. I am happy to discuss my personal background.
I was born in Hertfordshire, near St Albans, to a British-Chinese family and raised in Berkshire. I studied English Literature at Oxford University, where I was actively involved in drama and film. I served as the President of the Oxford University Drama Society and Vice-President of the Oxford University Film Foundation, both of which are still thriving today. My passion for theatre and film led me to pursue a career in the industry after graduation. I worked in the Far East, particularly in Singapore and Hong Kong, in theatre and opera, before moving to London to work for ICM, a major Hollywood talent agency. This led to my employment at MIRAMAX.
I often reflect on my experiences and how they all connect back to supporting women in difficult situations, from those facing sexual harassment in the workplace to those living in remote areas of Ethiopia and Sudan trying to support their families on less than a dollar a day.
The story of my start at MIRAMAX and my time at the company are well known, but the 20 years between then and now, during which I was bound by a non-disclosure agreement with Harvey Weinstein, are less talked about. After I, along with Zelda Perkins, another assistant, were forced out of the film industry, we had to find work in other fields. As I was blacklisted by Harvey and the MIRAMAX board members, I could no longer work in film and television, my first love. I tried various careers, including management consulting for PricewaterhouseCoopers in Hong Kong, Axentia in London, and MacKenzie in Silicon Valley. I also worked in international development, including a brief stint at the World Bank where I worked on projects in Ethiopia and Sudan. In 2006, I began a 12-country broadband rollout project in Sub-Saharan Africa, traveling extensively throughout the region and being deeply moved by the struggles of women and children. This was a decade before I came forward as a Weinstein survivor and became part of the MeToo movement. I often reflect on my experiences and how they all connect back to supporting women in difficult situations, from those facing sexual harassment in the workplace to those living in remote areas of Ethiopia and Sudan trying to support their families on less than a dollar a day.
Begina: Can you share your thoughts and reflections on the experiences you went through, now that the movie has brought it all back to the surface? Have you ever had a moment of healing or a way to cope with what happened?
Rowena: The original story was widely covered in the press and is depicted in the movie "She Said," which stars Carrie Mulligan and Zoe Kazan and is due to be released in the UK on November 25th. At the beginning of the MeToo Movement, the media and press focused heavily on the events that happened 20 years prior, asking questions about the details of the assault. The tabloids particularly focused on salacious details, such as what the victim was wearing at the time. The victim became known as "the victim who wore two pairs of tights." I had to push back against the press, even pausing an interview with the Financial Times when they got too focused on the assault. I said, you all know now that Harvey did terrible things to many women in hotel rooms, and yes, There were details such as wearing two jackets or two pairs of pants, or sitting too close to him on a sofa. However, let's move away from his actions in the past, whether it was in the '90s or 2000s, and instead focus on the current women who are speaking out and sharing their stories.
The MeToo Movement is now five years old. The story first broke in the fall of 2017 and in the movie, it is depicted in a scene where Jodie Camta, a New York Times journalist, came to my house in California and door-stopped my husband, who knew nothing about the original assault or the agreement I signed with Harvey Weinstein. This was a mind-blowing moment for both the movement and my personal life. Five years on, the world, including those involved in the story and the world at large, has had time to reflect on what has happened. In 2017, the story of the MeToo Movement was extraordinary, particularly the fact that the New York Times was able to break it when many journalists had tried and failed over the decade. This is well captured in the book "She Said" written by Jodie Camta and Meghan Twe. However, the world has moved on even from that book. What I like to think now is that five years on, the focus has shifted from being about one man's heinous acts, regardless of his fame, to being about a larger societal issue that affects people beyond the entertainment industry.
What I like to think now is that five years on, the focus has shifted from being about one man's heinous acts, regardless of his fame, to being about a larger societal issue that affects people beyond the entertainment industry.
As the Harvey Weinstein story unfolded and more and more women came forward, and now up to 111 women have spoken against Harvey, it became evident that his behaviour was not limited to a few isolated incidents of rape or assault. Rather, it was part of a pattern that had been going on for decades. The revelations about Weinstein were just the tip of the iceberg, as many women in various industries began to come forward with their own stories of sexual harassment and abuse. This indicated that toxic masculinity was a widespread problem, not only in the entertainment industry, but also in finance, tech, and other industries where there is power and wealth.
Five years on, where are we with the MeToo Movement? The purpose of the movement is to empower women to say, ‘me too’, and to show that no matter where you work the sexual harassment and assault occur across all industries and environments. Donna Retuno who was Harvey Weinstein’s lawyer during the time of the New York trial in criticism of his victims said: ‘well, I am not the sort of woman who would’ve gone up to the hotel room’. Many women wrote on Twitter: #metoo when I was babysitting, when I crossed the car park to finish work, when I went to Sainsbury’s to buy my dinner, when I was child of 8 and my uncle came to my room... These women started twitting about where they were at time they were assaulted to indicate that a woman and a young girl can face the threat of being assaulted in any sort of situation. These stories highlight that no woman or girl is safe from assault, regardless of their circumstances. The focus of the MeToo Movement is not to blame the victims, but rather to hold perpetrators accountable and address toxic masculinity.
As the movement progresses, it is crucial that it evolves from a purely cultural or societal movement to something more tangible and permanent in society.
I spoke a bit how this movement back in 2017 started as a cultural and societal movement, and indeed it was very important at the time because it opened a platform for women to talk about their stories. As the movement progresses, it is crucial that it evolves from a purely cultural or societal movement to something more tangible and permanent in society. To achieve this, we need to enact real legal and political change, which is a challenging and time-consuming process. However, unless we can embed our voices in these changes, we cannot guarantee that future generations will be protected.
Workplace policy needs to change, societal policy needs to change, and eventually we hope we can make a change within the law as well. I’ve been assisting several US organisations who are fighting against NDAs as they are too often used as a tool to silence women. It has been very difficult to get that into the Federal Law, so we’ve had to work on state-by-state basis. It is now a law that New York, California, New Jersey, passed, but as you may be very aware, in the US we are currently fighting much larger battle for women’s rights and autonomies over their bodies.
Begina: As someone who experienced disempowerment first-hand, you are well-positioned to speak about women's empowerment. What inspired you to speak out despite the overwhelming fear and intimidation you faced?
Rowena: The answer to that question is complex and multi-layered, considering my experience spans over several decades. In 1998, my colleague Sandra Perkins and I resigned from our jobs at MIRAMAX due to my sexual assault at the Venice Film Festival. We resigned to report Harvey to the police and make MIRAMAX's board and Disney's CEO, who owned MIRAMAX at the time, aware of the situation. We were determined to fight, but as young women in our mid-twenties with no fame or money, our reports were met with laughter and disbelief. Senior women at MIRAMAX told us that we had no chance of being believed. As a result, we signed an agreement that silenced us for 20 years.
Fast forward to 2017, a journalist from The New York Times visited me at my home in California and encouraged me to come forward along with other women who had been assaulted by Harvey and signed settlements with him. Initially, I was hesitant as I was a stay-at-home mother with four very young children; one of my kids was only 6 months old. I was not feeling okay on several fronts. I haven't spoken to any journalists from the New York Times despite many visiting me in the past 20 years. I believed Harvey to be more powerful than any news organization. When we signed the agreement, he told us that he had the White House, Bill and Hillary as friends, and a New York Times editor in his pocket. He claimed that no matter how powerful someone was in politics or entertainment, he had them all under his control and could destroy them. I honestly thought that there was no limit to his power and that nothing could bring him down.
When we signed the agreement, he told us that he had the White House, Bill and Hillary as friends, and a New York Times editor in his pocket. He claimed that no matter how powerful someone was in politics or entertainment, he had them all under his control and could destroy them. I honestly thought that there was no limit to his power and that nothing could bring him down.
At the same time, I believed that there were high-profile women who could take on someone like Harvey Weinstein. I wasn't sure who specifically, such as Gwyneth Paltrow or Ashley Judd, would be involved, but I knew that many famous Hollywood actresses would speak out. Despite this, I wondered if my own voice, as an ordinary person, would be powerful. I want to encourage women who may have a story to not dismiss their voice just because they may feel that they are nobody or that their voice doesn't matter. I've learned over the past years that everyone's voice counts.
Don't ever think that your story isn't powerful because you're an ordinary person, your name isn't famous, or you don't have a high-profile job or aren't a famous actress. In fact, the power lies in the ordinary voice, even a whisper can have a greater impact than someone shouting from a powerful position. Of course, what Gwyneth and Ashley did was important and built a platform, but it was the multitude of ordinary, non-famous women who followed them that truly made a difference.
Don't ever think that your story isn't powerful because you're an ordinary person, your name isn't famous, or you don't have a high-profile job or aren't a famous actress. In fact, the power lies in the ordinary voice, even a whisper can have a greater impact than someone shouting from a powerful position.
I know that my race has inspired other Asian women and women from diverse backgrounds who feel that their voices have always been silenced and they've always been invisible, to speak out. Many Asian women, whether older or younger, have written to me to say that they have never heard an Asian voice in these kinds of debates. They have told me that I am the first Chinese person they have ever read about or heard in the New York Times, as their culture does not talk about sexual assault. I have received letters from women in South Asian and African cultures, saying that their communities also don't talk about sexual assault and that I am the first person they have encountered who has encouraged them to speak up to their parents, boss, husband, or attacker. I believe that one shouldn't underestimate the power of an ordinary voice.
I believe that one shouldn't underestimate the power of an ordinary voice.
Begina: How did you feel and think when the MeToo Movement gained momentum and became a widely talked about topic in the media?
Rowena: To go back to 2017, when the New York Times story about Weinstein was first published and the MeToo Movement began, I will say that I, personally, was too frightened to share my own Me Too story on my Facebook page or Twitter thread, even though it seems ironic now that I am considered a public figure in the movement. Despite having an enormous story about Harvey that was deemed worthy by the New York Times to fly across the country to hear, I still felt that I was under a legal obligation and feared that Harvey, who at the time was not in jail and had access to millions of dollars that I didn't have, would sue me.
I also didn't tell my husband, parents, sister, or friends about the story, so I felt the personal impact of coming forward with such an enormous story would be massive. As a mother of very young children, I felt that I needed to focus on their needs, as the demands of a small baby consume all your time. I didn't have the time for press interviews or to take on any high-profile role in the movement, even though I found it ironic at the time that I saw people from my inner circle that didn’t know about my story typing "Me Too" on their Facebook profiles, and I even considered doing it myself but was too afraid. I simply couldn't do it at the time.
At the time, I was too afraid to speak out. I was bound by a Non-Disclosure Agreement for 20 years and it was difficult to break the habit of never discussing Harvey. In 1998, my lawyer told me to treat that time in my life as a black hole and never speak about working for Harvey Weinstein or anything that happened during that time. I had become so accustomed to staying silent that the idea of speaking out was extremely daunting. It took me two years.
I was determined not to come forward with my story, I was completely addiment that I’d come to my grave with it. I was afraid that I wouldn't be believed and mixed in with fear I felt a sense of humility. Many Hollywood actresses and powerful women have built their careers around promotion and publicity, and they know how to act and handle the cameras on the red carpet. I now smile because I've recently done all of that, facing the red carpet, journalists, and the crowds. My story is one of someone who feared many things, but they proved to be not as difficult as I had feared while worrying in my own kitchen.
"One woman alone can't go up against a man as powerful as Harvey Weinstein. But when women jump together, they can take down even the biggest abuser."
Begina: What advice would you give to women who are currently experiencing similar emotions and circumstances as you did, feeling trapped by fear and overwhelmed by a sense of injustice?
Rowena: I think the most important thing to do, and it often feels like the most difficult thing to do, is to find someone to talk to about it, even if you will do that under the cover of privacy, silence, and secrecy. But it would be best to find another woman you trust to confide in with your story. The reason the MeToo movement was finally able to succeed in taking down Harvey Weinstein, who we once thought was invincible, is because, as Megan Twohey said in a movie: "One woman alone can't go up against a man as powerful as Harvey Weinstein. But when women jump together, they can take down even the biggest abuser." This is exactly what happened with the MeToo Movement. We were all afraid and bound by NDAs, and neither Geraldine nor Megan could convince any of us to speak individually. But when one person was brave enough to take the first step, others quickly followed, creating a real tsunami of voices and stories. Within days of the article being published, dozens of women came forward about Harvey Weinstein. When I spoke out two years later, that number had risen to 60, 80, and today it is 111. And not just about Harvey, but tens of thousands of women globally spoke out about their own experiences with sexual assault. So, we, as Harvey's victims, were "fortunate" to have others with similar stories about Harvey to support us.
So, find another woman you trust, because the MeToo Movement has shown that many women share similar experiences, and that more women than you may realize in your social circle and even family have faced similar situations. We as women can talk to each other, break free from the silence that holds us captive, and support one another, which gives us the courage and power to come forward.
Begina: What is your message to other victims of abuse, also male victims?
Rowena: As you highlighted, men can also be survivors of abuse. A common abuse tactic, regardless of the abuser's gender, is to isolate and make the victim feel guilty, leading to feelings of insecurity, hopelessness, and loneliness. The abuser may try to convince the victim that they brought the abuse upon themselves and that if they were not "weak" or "something" else, it wouldn't be happening to them. The abuser may also blame the victim's appearance or personality for the abuse. To other victims, my message is this: Only you have the power to break free from the trap of feeling alone, worthless, and feeling like you are the only one going through this.
And I believe that taking the first step towards this freedom is speaking to someone else. You will often realize that the feeling of isolation is a trap set by your abuser to take power from you. By speaking up and reclaiming your voice, you are also reclaiming your power, which is incredibly important. Without this step, you will remain in the trap that your abuser has set for you.
You will often realize that the feeling of isolation is a trap set by your abuser to take power from you. By speaking up and reclaiming your voice, you are also reclaiming your power, which is incredibly important. Without this step, you will remain in the trap that your abuser has set for you.
Begina: What are the weaknesses of the legal system in handling sexual assault cases? I understand that so many cases can be discredited since they happened too long ago.
Rowena: Currently, a lot of activism focuses on the limitations of the law. In many countries, there is a statute of limitations for reporting rape or sexual assault, often set at three years. If the crime is not reported within this time frame, it becomes legally outdated and can no longer be pursued. This was highlighted in the MeToo Movement, where stories about Harvey Weinstein emerged that were decades old and could no longer be pursued legally due to the statute of limitations. The veracity of these stories is not in doubt, given the number of women who have come forward. However, it is fascinating in the context of the trials of Harvey Weinstein in New York (held in 2020), Los Angeles (starting next week), and eventually London, as they are limited to cases that occurred within the last three years due to the statute of limitations. This is limiting considering the breadth of Weinstein's actions around the world. The MeToo Movement is working to address this limitation by advocating for a better understanding of trauma, though it may not yet be a perfect understanding, it is better than we’ve had before.
We acknowledge that it can take years or even decades for victims to come forward with stories of sexual assault and rape because of the way trauma is processed and the possibility of a period of denial. (...) Changes are needed in the legal system, and these changes should be informed by a better understanding of trauma and the amount of time it can take for survivors to come forward.
We acknowledge that it can take years or even decades for victims to come forward with stories of sexual assault and rape because of the way trauma is processed and the possibility of a period of denial. This can conflict with the need for physical evidence and the statute of limitations in rape cases. The process of telling one's story can be difficult, as survivors may feel ashamed, be in denial, or not be ready to undergo a hospital examination, which can feel violating and traumatizing after a traumatic event. Changes are needed in the legal system, and these changes should be informed by a better understanding of trauma and the amount of time it can take for survivors to come forward. Expert psychologists and their understanding of trauma should inform the legal system and lead to reforms.
I think the MeToo Movement could not have been as successful as it is without women coming together.
Begina: What should be the new hashtag for the #MeToo Movement?
Rowena: This is a great question to think about what the new hashtag should be, and I think it should be "Let's Do This Together" or "Be Together" or "Let's Jump Together" or something along those lines, because as I mentioned in my previous answers, I think the MeToo Movement could not have been as successful as it is without women coming together. The very essence of MeToo is to say, "Oh, this happened to me too." So, there is a sense of collectivism and community, and it's something positive that arises from a very terrible situation. One way to view the MeToo Movement is that it took the voices of over a hundred women to be equal to the voice of one man. Previously, nobody believed the stories of Harvey Weinstein's sexual assault, people thought, "Oh, he just had extramarital affairs." His board members thought, "Oh, he's just a little bit naughty sometimes." Or, "These women are just actresses who want to get somewhere and slept with Harvey, now they regret it and want to make accusations." But no one believed the numerous victims of Harvey Weinstein, until the sheer number of women's voices was so great that they could no longer be ignored. It is staggering that it took a hundred women coming forward to be believed over the voice of one man. And so, I think that because society still discounts the voices of women to such an extreme degree, the only way we can move forward is by doing things together.
It is staggering that it took a hundred women coming forward to be believed over the voice of one man. And so, I think that because society still discounts the voices of women to such an extreme degree, the only way we can move forward is by doing things together.